Topics Discussed: Socialism, Communism, Class struggle, Quality of life, Unions, Corruption, Freedom of speech, War, Karl Marx, Socialist vision, AI and socialism, Socialist policies, Billionaires, Bernie Sanders, AOC, 2024 presidential election, China, Jacobin, The Socialist Manifesto, Advice for young people, Meaning of life.

bhaskar sunkara

Bhaskar Sunkara

Bhaskar Sunkara is an American political writer. He is the founding editor of Jacobin, the president of The Nation, and publisher of Catalyst: A Journal of Theory and Strategy and London's Tribune. He is a former vice-chair of the Democratic Socialists of America and the author of The Socialist Manifesto: The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality as well as a columnist for The Guardian US

Books Mentioned in this Podcast with Lex Fridman and Bhaskar Sunkara:

Balancing Capitalism and Socialism: A Path to Economic Prosperity

The age-old debate between capitalism and socialism continues to shape the economic and political landscapes of societies worldwide. While proponents of capitalism emphasize its role in driving efficiency and innovation, critics argue that it often leads to wealth inequality and exploitation. Bhaskar Sunkara, a prominent advocate for socialism, sheds light on this debate and offers insights into the potential for a more balanced economic system that combines the best of both worlds.

The Historical Lens of Class Struggle

To understand the dynamics of capitalism and socialism, it’s essential to consider the historical perspective. Class division, a concept dating back to the Neolithic Revolution, has long been a defining feature of human society. Marx’s theory posits that class struggle has played a pivotal role in shaping human history, with the tension between those who own and those who rely solely on their ability to work.

Is Capitalist Class Difference Over-Exaggerated?

Critics of socialism often argue that the class difference in capitalism is over-exaggerated. They suggest that while a stark difference may exist initially, the evolution of capitalism has led to two crucial developments. First, socialist movements and workers’ organizations have fought for and secured various rights and protections for the working class. These include the 40-hour workweek, minimum wage laws, and safety regulations. These protections are considered socialism within capitalism, serving as a buffer against exploitation.

Second, societies have become wealthier and more productive over time. As economic prosperity has grown, even the abstract division between workers and capitalists may seem less pronounced when workers enjoy higher salaries, shorter workweeks, and extended vacations. Critics argue that these factors mitigate the need for radical shifts away from capitalism.

Bhaskar Sunkara's Response

Sunkara counters these arguments by highlighting two critical factors. Firstly, he notes that the rights and protections achieved by the working class are constantly under threat. The economic power held by capitalists often seeps into the political sphere, leading to continuous lobbying for labor market deregulation. Without these safeguards, Sunkara believes society could regress to a 19th-century form of capitalism, marked by widespread exploitation.

Secondly, Sunkara raises a normative question. He asks whether ordinary people possess the capacity to make decisions about their work, asserting that workers often possess valuable knowledge about their tasks that managers may lack. In a reimagined economic system, workers could have a more significant role in shaping their work environment, thereby increasing efficiency.

The Role of Worker Cooperatives

Sunkara introduces the concept of worker cooperatives, a fundamental aspect of market socialism. In these firms, workers have a direct say in decision-making processes, and workplace information is more freely shared. Sunkara believes that if workers are incentivized and empowered, market-based firms can exist without traditional capitalists.

Addressing Concerns about Incompetence

Critics express concerns about whether workers can effectively address incompetence within their ranks if they take charge. They fear that allowing the less competent to remain could hinder overall productivity. Sunkara acknowledges this challenge and suggests that successful socialist models need two key components.

At the micro-level, worker cooperatives must have mechanisms for firing employees, albeit possibly with slower processes compared to traditional capitalism. This ensures that businesses remain competitive and efficient. At the macro-level, firm failure must also be a possibility to prevent economic inefficiency, as witnessed in certain Soviet-style economies.

Balancing Firing and Human Rights

Sunkara acknowledges the discomfort associated with firing individuals but emphasizes that it is a necessary aspect of any functional economic system. However, in a social system, individuals facing job loss due to incompetence or other reasons would have support mechanisms in place. Softening the blow of unemployment through retraining programs and welfare provisions can help individuals transition to new opportunities without falling into destitution.

The Role of a Strong Social Safety Net

Sunkara also argues that a robust social safety net can make it more efficient to terminate employees who are not performing adequately. When individuals are not at risk of losing their quality of life, they are more likely to seek new opportunities and improve their skills, ultimately benefiting the collective.

The Connection Between Economic Power and Political Influence

Economic power is closely intertwined with political influence, and this relationship plays a significant role in the debate between capitalism and socialism. In capitalist systems, economic elites often hold substantial political sway, which can result in policies that favor their interests. In contrast, workers may find themselves with limited influence, even in democratic societies.

The Democratic Solution

Socialism seeks to rectify this power imbalance by extending democratic principles from the political sphere into the economic realm. It advocates for greater worker control within businesses, allowing employees to participate in decisions about their work, wages, and conditions. In this vision, economic power is more evenly distributed, and the collective decisions of workers shape the economic landscape.


The ongoing debate between capitalism and socialism is far from settled, but Bhaskar Sunkara’s insights shed light on the potential for a more balanced economic system. By addressing concerns about efficiency, innovation, and worker competence, socialism seeks to harness the best aspects of both systems while prioritizing equality, worker rights, and environmental sustainability. Ultimately, the goal is to create an economic framework that benefits the majority of society and maintains a democratic balance of power.