Joe Rogan Barbara Freese

Barbara Freese

Barbara Freese is a distinguished environmental lawyer, author, and advocate whose career has been dedicated to advancing environmental justice and sustainability. With a passion for addressing complex issues at the intersection of law, science, and policy, Freese has made significant contributions to the field. She is widely recognized for her groundbreaking book, "Coal: A Human History," which explores the profound impact of coal on human civilization and the environment. This work earned her critical acclaim and solidified her reputation as a leading voice on energy and climate issues. Throughout her career, Barbara has worked with various organizations, including the Environmental Defense Fund and the Minnesota Attorney General's Office, where she has tackled issues related to air and water quality, climate change, and corporate responsibility. Barbara Freese's commitment to environmental protection and her ability to communicate complex subjects to a broader audience make her a prominent figure in the fight for a more sustainable and just world.

The Joe Rogan Experience #1500 with Barbara Freese: Exploring the Nexus of Corporate Denial and Climate Change

The 1500th episode of The Joe Rogan Experience featured Barbara Freese, an environmental attorney and author of “Industrial Strength Denial.” The episode opens with the usual sponsorship segments, which we’ll skip to focus on the meat of the conversation – the intriguing dance between corporate interests and environmental responsibility.

The Genesis of Denial: A Journey from Tobacco to Climate Change

Barbara’s interest in corporate denial, particularly regarding climate change, was piqued during her tenure as an environmental attorney in the 1990s. She discussed an incident where the state of Minnesota was on the front lines of the scientific debate over climate change. The coal industry sent a cadre of scientists to testify against the dangers of CO2 emissions, marking the beginning of a widespread denial movement. Barbara emphasizes how these scientists, under oath, would deny the impending climate change or downplay its effects, often funded by the industries that stood to lose the most from environmental regulations.

Industrial Denial: A Historical Perspective

Barbara draws a parallel between modern-day climate denial and the defenses mounted by industries in the past, notably the slave trade in Britain during the 1700s. She explains how the British slave trade lobby crafted narratives to justify their actions, portraying themselves as rescuers of Africans rather than oppressors. This campaign of denial, according to Barbara, was the first intensive instance of industrial denial she could identify. It set a precedent for how corporations would continue to distort reality to continue profitable but harmful practices.

The Corporate Structure: A Double-Edged Sword

Discussing the nature of corporations, Barbara elucidates how their structure inherently diffuses responsibility, making it easier for harmful practices to continue without direct accountability. She describes a corporation as “an ingenious device for obtaining personal profit without personal responsibility,” highlighting how this structure can amplify biases and self-interest, diminish the sense of individual responsibility, and grant significant political power to these entities.

The Road Ahead: Challenges and Realities

As the conversation progresses, the focus shifts to the current state of environmental policy and corporate power. Barbara discusses the ideological and tribal divisions that have hindered effective climate action in the U.S. and emphasizes the need for a massive, coordinated effort akin to a Green New Deal to prevent catastrophic climate change. She also touches on the complex interplay between capitalism, market forces, and environmental sustainability, suggesting that while market mechanisms like putting a price on carbon could help, there’s often resistance from those who otherwise champion market solutions.

The Joe Rogan Experience #1500 with Barbara Freese: The Dark Side of Social Media: Amplifying Denial and Division

Barbara Freese and Joe Rogan delve into the role of social media in perpetuating denial and division. They discuss how the platforms’ algorithms, designed to engage users by feeding them content that aligns with their views, inadvertently fuel conflict and polarization. The anonymity provided by these platforms can encourage a lack of responsibility and increase casual brutality. These factors combine to create a potent force driving societal division and denial of various issues, including climate change.

The Financial Crisis: A Case Study in Denial

The conversation shifts to the financial crisis of 2008, where Wall Street’s denial of the risks associated with their products and practices led to a catastrophic economic collapse. Freese highlights the culture of exploitation and short-term gain that pervaded the industry, with bankers often motivated by immediate bonuses rather than long-term consequences. This culture, coupled with complex financial instruments and a lack of understanding or concern about the risks involved, created a perfect storm leading to the crisis.

Radium: A Historical Example of Industrial Denial

Freese shares the chilling story of radium, once celebrated for its seemingly magical properties, which led to a health fad with tragic consequences. She narrates how companies, driven by profit, ignored the dangers of radium exposure and marketed it as a health product. The resulting health crises, including the horrifying condition known as “radium jaw,” eventually led to increased awareness and regulation. This historical example demonstrates how industries can knowingly put the public at risk, prioritizing profits over safety.

The Ozone Layer: A Success Story Amidst Denial

The conversation turns to a rare environmental success story: the global response to the depletion of the ozone layer. Despite initial denial and resistance from industries, the discovery of the ozone hole led to the Montreal Protocol, an international agreement to phase out the use of harmful chemicals. Freese notes that this success was partly due to the fact that the industry could easily replace the harmful chemicals with profitable alternatives. However, she also points out the backlash from right-wing groups and individuals who continued to deny the science even after industries had accepted it.

The Joe Rogan Experience #1500 with Barbara Freese: Confronting the Shadows: Corporate Denial and Social Responsibility

In the final third of the podcast, Joe Rogan and Barbara Freese discuss the insidious nature of corporate denial and its impact on society. They explore how corporations, driven by profit and self-preservation, often engage in denial and disinformation campaigns to protect their interests. This behavior is not just a natural human reaction to protect profitability but is also a learned and strategically disseminated tactic that has been perfected over time.

Corporate Denial: A Transgenerational Playbook

The conversation reveals that there is a virtual playbook for corporate denial, with strategies passed down and refined from one industry to another. Tobacco, for example, taught many modern industries how to effectively deny and deflect responsibility. Various groups and industries then adopt and adapt these strategies, creating a cycle of denial that is hard to break. The discussion highlights how these strategies are not just confined to the internal workings of a corporation but are often outsourced to specialized groups that can run these plays while keeping the funding sources anonymous.

The Vicious Cycle of Doubt and Inaction

Freese emphasizes the concept that doubt is a powerful tool in the arsenal of denial. By sowing seeds of doubt, corporations do not need to prove they are right; they only need to make the public uncertain. This uncertainty paralyzes action and maintains the status quo, benefiting the industries that are contributing to the problem. This tactic of promoting doubt has been particularly effective in the debate around climate change, where fossil fuel industries have managed to delay substantial action for decades.

Denial Turned Monster: When Corporate Creations Go Rogue

The podcast sheds light on the phenomenon where the entities created to protect corporate interests, such as advocacy groups or think tanks, often become independent forces of denial, sometimes even outflanking the corporations themselves in their extremism. This self-perpetuating cycle of denial and disinformation becomes a monster that continues to grow and influence, long after the original creators have stepped back or even changed their stance.

Looking Forward: Breaking the Cycle of Denial

In closing, Freese and Rogan ponder the future and how society might address and break this cycle of corporate denial. They discuss the importance of recognizing these patterns, understanding the playbook, and finding ways to counteract these deeply ingrained tactics. The conversation ends on a note of cautious optimism, acknowledging the challenges ahead but also the potential for change if these issues are brought into the light and addressed head-on.


The Joe Rogan Experience episode #1500 with Barbara Freese provides a deep dive into the world of corporate denial, highlighting the strategies, consequences, and potential paths forward. It’s a thought-provoking discussion that encourages listeners to look beyond the surface and consider the broader implications of corporate behavior on society and the environment. The conversation serves as a reminder of the power of informed dialogue and the importance of holding corporations accountable for their actions and their impact on the world.