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The Ezra Klein ShowJul 25, 2025

Is Decarbonization Dead?

Summary, books mentioned, transcript quotes, and timestamps for Is Decarbonization Dead? on The Ezra Klein Show.

Books mentioned

Mars Trilogy Energy, Human History Frontiers of Illusion+1 more

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Is Decarbonization Dead? mentions Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes, Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarowitz, and Why Nothing Works by Mark Dunkelman with timestamps, quotes, and episode context.

Mars Trilogy Energy, Human History Frontiers of Illusion Why Nothing Works

3 books from this episode

Mars Trilogy

Kim Stanley Robinson

I think it's a great example of a story of sort of how humanity might muddle through the next couple hundred years that I think grapples with how cha…

Energy, Human History

Richard Rhodes

Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes, a historian that I think rightfully puts energy at the sort of center of the human story.

Frontiers of Illusion

Daniel Sarowitz

The second one is Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarowitz, who is just a brilliant thinker around science and technology policy and science and soci…

Episode summary

Biden passed the most ambitious climate legislation in American history. Trump just shredded it. What does that mean for the future of renewable energy in America? Where does the climate movement go from here? And is it too late for us to avert climate catastrophe? To answer these questions, I invited onto the show two climate experts: Jesse Jenkins, who is a leading climate modeler and a professor at Princeton University, where he runs the Princeton ZERO Lab, and Jane Flegal, who is the executive director of the Blue Horizons Foundation and served on the Biden administration’s climate policy team. We discuss how far Trump’s policies have set us back, the lessons the climate movement should learn from this loss and what the next wave of climate politics may look like. Mentioned: “Impacts of the One Big Beautiful Bill On The US Energy Transition – Summary Report” by REPEAT Project “There’s a Race to Power the Future. China Is Pulling Away.” by David Gelles, Somini Sengupta, Keith Bradsher and Brad Plumer Jesse’s Book Recommendations: Why Nothing Works by Marc J. Dunkelman Energy by Richard Rhodes Mars Trilogy Series by Kim Stanley Robinson Jane’s Book Recommendations: Mating by Norman Rush Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarewitz An Engine, Not a Camera by Donald MacKenzie Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

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Mars Trilogy

Kim Stanley Robinson

The host mentioned the Mars Trilogy as a way to engage with speculative history and explore how humanity might naviga…

Card

Energy, Human History

Richard Rhodes

The host mentions 'Energy, Human History' to emphasize the central role that energy plays in shaping human society an…

Card

Frontiers of Illusion

Daniel Sarowitz

The host mentions 'Frontiers of Illusion' as a significant work by Daniel Sarowitz that explores the myths surroundin…

Card

Why Nothing Works

Mark Dunkelman

The host mentions 'Why Nothing Works' as a follow-up recommendation for listeners who are interested in the complexit…

Card

An Engine, Not a Camera

Donald McKenzie

The host mentions 'An Engine, Not a Camera' to highlight its insightful analysis of economic models and their influen…

Card

Mating

Norman Rush

The host briefly mentions the book 'Mating' by Norman Rush while discussing the complexities of energy project permit…

Card

Abundance

The host discusses the limitations of the current environmental movement, emphasizing its focus on stopping negative…

Card

Book mentions7

Media mentions0

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Answers to common summary, books, and takeaway questions for this episode.

What is Is Decarbonization Dead? about?

Summary, books mentioned, transcript quotes, and timestamps for Is Decarbonization Dead? on The Ezra Klein Show.

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What are the main takeaways from Is Decarbonization Dead??

These are the strongest takeaways surfaced by the transcript, summary copy, and linked mentions for Is Decarbonization Dead?.

The conversation centers on environmental movement challenges.
A second recurring theme is importance of energy in society.
Referenced books include Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson and Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes.
The strongest audience signal points to Readers interested in science fiction and futurism and Individuals interested in history, energy policy, and societal development.

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Which books are mentioned in Is Decarbonization Dead??

Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes, and Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarowitz are the clearest linked books in this episode, each tied back to transcript timestamps and quote cards.

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Topic and sentiment signals

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Top triggers

environmental movement challenges(1)importance of energy in society(1)permitting reform for energy projects(1)role of economic models(1)science and technology policy(1)speculative history of the future(1)tax policy and revenue(1)

Mention sentiment

Highly Recommended(5)Critical Analysis(1)Passing Reference(1)

Audience signals

Readers interested in science fiction and futurismIndividuals interested in history, energy policy, and societal developmentIndividuals interested in science policy and societal impactsReaders interested in governance and economic policyIndividuals interested in economics, climate policy, and social studies of science.Individuals interested in energy policy and project management

Books Mentioned

The full list below is ranked by how useful each mention is to a listener: stronger recommendation language, clearer quote context, and better timestamp support rise first.

Mars Trilogy

Kim Stanley Robinson

Best for Readers interested in science fiction and futurismOften cited around speculative history of the future

“one that I'll call out is Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy. I think it's a great example of a story of sort of how humanity might muddle through the next couple hundred years.”

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Sentiment: Highly Recommended

Trigger: speculative history of the future

For: Readers interested in science fiction and futurism

Key quote: “I think it's a great example of a story of sort of how humanity might muddle through the next couple hundred years that I think grapples with how changing technology co-evolves with society in really interesting ways.”

The host mentioned the Mars Trilogy as a way to engage with speculative history and explore how humanity might navigate future challenges. They believe that Robinson's work offers valuable insights into the interplay between technology and society.

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Energy, Human History

Richard Rhodes

Best for Individuals interested in history, energy policy, and societal developmentOften cited around importance of energy in society

“The next one I would say is Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes, a historian that I think rightfully puts energy at the sort of center of the human story.”

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Sentiment: Highly Recommended

Trigger: importance of energy in society

For: Individuals interested in history, energy policy, and societal development

Key quote: “Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes, a historian that I think rightfully puts energy at the sort of center of the human story.”

The host mentions 'Energy, Human History' to emphasize the central role that energy plays in shaping human society and its structures. This book is recommended as a foundational text for understanding the historical context of energy use and its implications for future societal developments.

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Frontiers of Illusion

Daniel Sarowitz

Best for Individuals interested in science policy and societal impactsOften cited around science and technology policy

“The second one is Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarowitz, who is just a brilliant thinker around science and technology policy and science and society.”

View mention details

Sentiment: Highly Recommended

Trigger: science and technology policy

For: Individuals interested in science policy and societal impacts

Key quote: “The second one is Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarowitz, who is just a brilliant thinker around science and technology policy and science and society.”

The host mentions 'Frontiers of Illusion' as a significant work by Daniel Sarowitz that explores the myths surrounding science and its societal impact. This book is recommended for those looking to deepen their understanding of the relationship between science and social outcomes.

Direct Amazon listing · affiliate link

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Why Nothing Works

Mark Dunkelman

Best for Readers interested in governance and economic policyOften cited around tax policy and revenue

“the next one on my list is Mark Dunkelman's Why Nothing Works, which I think is probably a great place for folks who have read your book to pick up next.”

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Sentiment: Highly Recommended

Trigger: tax policy and revenue

For: Readers interested in governance and economic policy

Key quote: “As I have just finished reading Abundance, the next one on my list is Mark Dunkelman's Why Nothing Works, which I think is probably a great place for folks who have read your book to pick up next.”

The host mentions 'Why Nothing Works' as a follow-up recommendation for listeners who are interested in the complexities of societal issues and policy-making. This book is suggested as a valuable resource for those looking to deepen their understanding of the challenges in governance and economics.

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An Engine, Not a Camera

Donald McKenzie

Best for Individuals interested in economics, climate policy, and social studies of science.Often cited around role of economic models

“the last one is Donald McKenzie's An Engine, Not a Camera, which is also kind of a social studies of science book.”

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Sentiment: Highly Recommended

Trigger: role of economic models

For: Individuals interested in economics, climate policy, and social studies of science.

Key quote: “it's a really brilliant analysis of the role of economic models and theory of finance, not as like descriptive representations of empirical reality, but as actual drivers of how those markets operate themselves.”

The host mentions 'An Engine, Not a Camera' to highlight its insightful analysis of economic models and their influence on market operations. This book is particularly relevant in discussions about climate and environmental policy, emphasizing the power of models in shaping reality.

Direct Amazon listing · affiliate link

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Mating

Norman Rush

Best for Individuals interested in energy policy and project managementOften cited around permitting reform for energy projects

“my first recommendation is Norman Rush's Mating, which is just...”

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Sentiment: Passing Reference

Trigger: permitting reform for energy projects

For: Individuals interested in energy policy and project management

Key quote: “I think one thing to say is that Texas is quite a good example of where this has gone reasonably well.”

The host briefly mentions the book 'Mating' by Norman Rush while discussing the complexities of energy project permitting. This reference serves to illustrate the intricate dynamics of relationships and negotiations, akin to the challenges faced in energy policy.

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Abundance

Best for environmental activists and policymakersOften cited around environmental movement challenges

“He's going to say Abundance. Classic.”

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Sentiment: Critical Analysis

Trigger: environmental movement challenges

For: environmental activists and policymakers

Key quote: “the environmental movement that provided most of the horsepower to date for climate politics and climate policy was built to stop bad stuff, not to build good stuff.”

The host discusses the limitations of the current environmental movement, emphasizing its focus on stopping negative actions rather than promoting positive solutions. They reference the book 'Abundance' to highlight the need for a shift towards building and supporting sustainable energy initiatives.

Direct Amazon listing · affiliate link

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Mars Trilogy

The Ezra Klein Show · 1:13:58

I think it's a great example of a story of sort of how humanity might muddle through the next couple hundred years that I think grapples with how cha…

Energy, Human History

The Ezra Klein Show · 1:13:42

Energy, Human History by Richard Rhodes, a historian that I think rightfully puts energy at the sort of center of the human story.

Frontiers of Illusion

The Ezra Klein Show · 1:15:02

The second one is Frontiers of Illusion by Daniel Sarowitz, who is just a brilliant thinker around science and technology policy and science and soci…

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